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iunicu
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Conform studiilor s-a constatat ca butoaiele de 500l sunt ideale pentru maturarea bauturilor alcoolice ca suprafata lemoasa raportata la volum de bautura.
Am facut de curiozitate un calcul simplu.
Un cilindru de 500 l = 0,5 m3 are o arie totala de 3,5 m2. Adica 3500 cm2 raportati la 500 litri rezulta 7 cm2/ litru
Asadar, daca nu grasesc pe undeva, pentru fiecare litru de alcool trebuiesc aproximativ 7cm2 de scandura de lemn pentru o inobilare corecta.
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Samogon
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Cred că sunt şi considerente de economie de spaţiu, material lemnos, pierderi de alcool. Dacă vrei o suprafaţă mai mare de contact nu te opreşte nimeni să bagi doage de stejar în butoiul cu băutură... după părerea mea, HÂC! 
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ÎNVINUIRE = Procesul de transformare a mustului în vin
ÎMPRĂŞTIERE = Rezultatul procesului prin care beţivii se fac praştie
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Caberlot
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LA SECTIUNEA "MATURAREA IN BUTOI DE STEJAR" o sa gasiti postul de mai jos ...
oricum ... CE SE PETRECE IN BUTOI DE STEJAR IN 10-15-20 DE ANI ... NOI VREM SA FACEM in 1-2-3--6 luni ... diferenta e f.f. mare ...
... incercarile CARE o sa fie greu de repetat ... pt ca nu avem cantitati mari=calitate constanta ... + inovatiile (DE ASTA VA RECOMANDAM ... MIXURI DE ASCHII) ... ASTA O SA FIE "CALEA NOASTRA" ...
asta e postul ...
NU SUNT IDEIILE MELE … LE-AM LUAT DE PE INTERNET DINTR-UN REFERAT (recunosc ca sunt lenes la scris )si am pierdut sursa …
… DAR CEVA ASEMANATOR SCRIE SI IN CARTEA DE OENOLOGIE
3.1. Vasele de păstrare.
Cele mai bune rezultate, în privinţa păstrării şi învechirii distilatelor de vin, se obţin prin folosirea vaselor construite din lemn de stejar cu o capacitate de 500 – 550 litri. în vase mai mari de 550 litri, maturarea decurge mai greu şi se prelungeşte, iar în cele mai mici de 500 litri, pe lângă pierderile mari de produs, se înregistrează şi o intensificare a proceselor de oxidare în masa distilatului, ceea ce atrage o maturare forţata.
Avantajele la folosirea butoaielor de 500 – 550 litri decurg din realizarea celui mai favorabil raport suprafaţa de contact / volum de lichid. Din acest punct de vedere Agabaliant G.G. considera că cel mai favorabil raport este de 80 – 90 cm2/litru.
In regiunea viticolă Cognac ( Franţă ), în primii doi ani distilatul de vin este păstrat în butoaie de stejar noi ( nefolosite anterior ) după care învechirea are loc în vase folosite în acelaşi scop.
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3.5. Învechirea rapida a distilatelor de vin.
………………………………..
Rezultate mulţumitoare au fost obţinute prin metoda elaborată de Agabalinţ G.G., care permite învechirea distilatului în rezervoare emailate sau din otel inox, închise ermetic, în interiorul cărora sunt aşezate în mod uniform, doage de stejar, pregătite ca şi cele care servesc la construirea butoaielor pentru învechirea clasică a distilatelor .
Se realizează astfel o suprafaţa de contact asemănătoare cu cea oferită de butoaiele în capacitate de 500 l. pentru asigurarea proceselor de oxidare, la intervale de 1.5 – 2 luni, în distilat se incorporează aer sau oxigen, în proporţie de 12 – 15 mg/l. temperatura de păstrare, de-a lungul întregului an este de 25 – 27 o C. în astfel de condiţii, învechirea decurge de 2.5 – 3 ori mai repede, fără pierderi şi cu economii importante de doage de stejar.
Din numeroasele experimente se menţionează cel bazat pe temperatura ridicată şi sporirea substanţială a suprafeţei de contact între talajul de stejar şi distilat."
multe sporuri la incercat aschiile !
(nu uitati ca ... pt wisichi ... 80% din aroma vine de la aschii ... ... asa ca plusati unde credeti voi ... la aschii sau la alcooale !)
...
NU VORBIM DE RACHIE , SAU DE PALINCA SAU DE CONIACE (CARE SI ASTEA AJUNGIN BUTOIUL DE VIN) ... PT CA FRUCTELE DAU AROMA PUTERNICA ... si parerea mea ... stejarul vine in complectare ... adica probabil 20 %
CRISTOS A INVIAT !
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"O să intru în păcat,/Sfinte Doamne, ţine-mă!
Pentru vin nu am ficat,/Pentru apă... inimă! "PĂSTOREL
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Caberlot
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TOT DIN CARTEA ... Craft of Whiskey Distilling 
DUPA CITE ZIC astia ... ar trebuii sa recuperam si noi aschiile si sa le refolosim  ca sa obtinem ceva mai fin in timp dublu 
tot in engleza 
TYPE OF OAK
The type of oak also plays a role. European oak is not as dense as American white oak,
so you get a higher color but some harshness. It is also interesting to note that once-used
bourbon staves shipped to Scotland are rebuilt with new, larger heads so that the 53-gallon
barrels are rebuilt into 63-gallon hogsheads. The prior-contents of the barrel also influence
the taste of the product to be aged. A sherry cask will give the spirit a more fruity character
than a bourbon barrel, and if it was an Oloroso sherry, color development will be faster.
New barrels will impart a darker color and richer flavor, but the more delicate spirits take
on more harshness after aging.
THE LEVEL OF CHARRING AND
THE USE OF OAK CHIPS (STAVES)
Spirits aged in charred barrels mature faster than those aged in toasted or non-charred
barrels. The charring process for new barrels definitely contributes to the aging of a spirit.
It acts like an activated-carbon filter to adsorb sulfur compounds and it provides a passage
AMERICAN DISTILLING INSTITUTE | '#
for the spirit into the pores of the oak. In the United States a full-depth charring of barrels
(i.e., 1/8 inch) used to age American straight whiskey is predicated by law. This is in spite
of the fact that over-charring can actually destroy some of the flavors that are needed to
develop the finish of the spirit. This is why toasting, or even a light char, may be a better
route, but it is illegal in the United States to age straight whiskies, such as bourbon, in anything
but fully-charred barrels. A medium-depth char is required just to crack the wood,
and a heavier char burns up wood compounds that would only be caramelized by a low- or
medium-level char.
Charred barrels produce a deeper colored spirit (temperature is also a contributor)
and there is a greater production of esters.
It has been found that the more delicate-flavored spirits like malt whiskey, Canadian
whisky, and rum are overpowered by the oak contribution of new charred barrels, so these
spirits are aged in once-used bourbon barrels, among other types of used barrels, to give a
much more balanced flavor profile.
Toasted oak chips (or staves) can be added to a barrel to provide additional lignin and
vanillin, this can augment the aging effect of a barrel. They do provide a significantly different
congener profile than that produced by a once-used charred barrel. And, since putting
toasted staves in whiskey barrels is legal in the United States, they are often used by bourbon
distilleries to contribute an additional mellow sweetness to whiskey that would not
normally benefit by this as much since the bourbon barrels are fully charred as per US law.
In summary, a charred barrel contributes color, vanillin, honey, spice, viscosity, and a
myriad of other flavors to a whiskey that can be detected by the experienced taster.
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"O să intru în păcat,/Sfinte Doamne, ţine-mă!
Pentru vin nu am ficat,/Pentru apă... inimă! "PĂSTOREL
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iunicu
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Interesant articolul.
Oricum ar fi lemnul, e de preferat sa maturezi bautura pe lemn decat pe sticla sau mai rau, pe plastic.
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Caberlot
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si tot din sursa de mai sus ... americanii invechesc wisichiul 3 ani ... si il pun in butoi la 55-60 ... ca daca e mai tare scoate prea mult si prea iute din lemn ... si 55-60 le convine si daca pierd PARTEA INGERILOR in 10-15 ani ... ajung pe la 40-45  daca nu mai pun apa
deci cum apreciaza cind e invechit :
So, it’s important that the whiskey be
sampled every few weeks or every month after the first 18 months of aging.
To sample the whiskey, remove the bung and draw up about an ounce of it with a glass
wine thief or a large pipette, and empty it into a wineglass. Take a nose and taste of the caskstrength
whiskey, and then dilute it half-and-half with water and nose and taste it again.
While the whiskey is still immature, it will have an unbalanced flavor of straight wood and
a burnt taste. When the whiskey is ěreadyî, it’ll have a smooth, rich, balanced flavor with
characteristics of the wood and char, but the raw woody, burnt taste will have subsided.
After determining that the whiskey is mature, monitor the development of the whiskey
each week for several more weeks to make sure the whiskey has reached a mature, rich
flavor, but where you sense that any more oak contact may take it over the top. It’s best to
have several people make these final evaluations.
At this point, the barrel should be emptied into glass or stainless-steel containers to
halt the aging process. The container, or containers, should not have a lot of air space,
and should be sealed up tight to prevent evaporation. The whiskey is now aged and ready
for diluting, filtering, and bottling. The exact volume and percent alcohol of the whiskey
should be measured and noted. You are now ready to proceed to the diluting, filtering, and
bottling step. Both these methods involve double distilling, which gives smoother results,
and is therefore what’s recommended in this text.
... tot PAPILA e sef de atelier !
si in continuare ...
BACKGROUND
Throughout the barrel-aging process, the whiskey will have been tasted periodically
so as to determine when it’s ready for drinking. When the whiskey has a nice balance of
caramels, lignins, vanillins, tannin bitterness, and the smell and taste of burnt wood has
mellowed out into the rich and elegant flavor of good whiskey, it’s time to take the whiskey
off the oak, prepare it for bottling, and then bottle it.
When whiskey in a barrel has reached its peak, it’s important that the whiskey be taken
off the wood even if the facility is not ready to bottle it. If a whiskey is aged too long in
the barrel, it will become astringent and bitter, and the flavor will lose its balance. So, when
the whiskey is ready it must be moved out of the barrel and into containers made of inert
materials such as glass or stainless steel. As long as the containers are tightly sealed so no
evaporation can take place, the whiskey will keep indefinitely.
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"O să intru în păcat,/Sfinte Doamne, ţine-mă!
Pentru vin nu am ficat,/Pentru apă... inimă! "PĂSTOREL
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Caberlot
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ca sa mai spargem linistea de pe forumul asta ...
m-am gindit sa revin cu ceva comentarii despre ASCHII
DIN EXPERIENTZA MEA ...
... treaba cu aschiile merge . merge chiar bine ...
... DAR REZULTATELE SUNT DIFERITE DE BUTOI !!!
DEOCAMDATA ...
... pot sa spun ca butoiul e net superior aschiilor DACA il folosesti la vinuri rosii - mai exact cabernet ... cind epizez butoiul o sa-l trec pe alcoole , pina atunci isi face datoria la vinuri !
ORICUM ... e o mare diferenta intre ce dau aschile in vin-URME DE VANILIE DE EX. ... si cum se comporta in alcool-distilat de 60-75% ... am facut mai multe experiente si nu am reusit sa dau de urma aia de vanilie ???
NU AM NICI O EXPLICATIE 
ACUM AM NISTE STICLE DE DISTILAT 15 SI DE 20% (distilat=inima diluat cu apa ca sa nu aiba izuri straine din cozi sau capete) CU ASCHII ... vreau sa vad daca la concentratii mici apar romele de vanilie in distilat ... DAR LA PRIMA DEGUSTARE-dupa o luna INCA NU AM SIMTIT NIMIC  ... e drept ca la vin ... efectul apare cam in 2-3 luni ... mai asteptam
F.IMPORTANT === FOLOSESC ACELEASI ASCHII (din aceiasi punga-cumparate)
... PROBABIL ca nici nu o sa se simta nici o vanilie ... ma gindesc ca vinul e mai complex si ca extrage=face reactie cu tanini din lemn ca sa ajungem la vanilie ... sau aciditatea din vin ajuta la extargerea aromelor de vanilie ... nu stiu  
NU MA PLING DE ASCHIILE MELE ... DAR SE PARE CA PROBLEMA E CU MULT MAI COMPLEXA DECIT PARE LA PRIMA VEDERE ... butoiasul meu de 5L pe care acum il tot reumplu cu vin la 5-6 saptamani ( am inceput la 2 sapt) continua sa dea un "+" mare la vinul meu ... care e oricum f. bun -
................................................................parerea musafirilor 
pentru cine vrea mai multe despre ... ASHCHII
Everything you need to know about oak alternatives.
by barrelcreator » Sat Mar 29, 2008 12:30 pm
This is a seminar I gave a while back and thought I would share it with everyone.
Jesse, Feel free to make this a sticky if you would like. Anyone needs any oak info feel free to PM me and I will offer any advise I can.
Enjoy. BarrelCreator...
Oak Alternatives
Why oak chips have given alternatives a bad rap and the difference between oak chips and premium Oak Alternatives.
Why “premium” oak alternatives can duplicate the complex flavor and aroma profiles that actual barrel aging receives. Oaks contribution in aging.
A better understanding of oaks chemical and compound changes during toasting and examples of toasting profiles.
The main chemical compounds that give you your aromas during the toasting process and a better understanding of how it works.
Oaks growth rates, seasoning and drying techniques and their effect on extraction levels along with flavor and aroma profiles.
Normal oak tree growth rated Vs. Slow grown trees.
Naturally seasoned oak Vs. Kiln dried oak.
Oak Alternatives
Why oak chips have given alternatives a bad rap and the difference between oak chips and premium Oak Alternatives
In the past, chips have been the most popular alternative both commercially and at home to impart oak flavors. Simply because barrels have many drawbacks including cost, weight, storage, care, spoilage etc.
Chips impart immediate disjointed and simple, monochromatic flavor profiles quickly, leaving them bitter and harsh. Most styles of toasting chips will give you a simple presence of a toasty flavor but with no complexity behind the flavor and when compared to actual barrels, the flavor is similar but not the same.
The reason for this is many things, but the two most important being, the thickness of the chips, and the toasting process. Most chips are toasted in a very large oven. The heat penetration is constant and the chips are so thin that they end up with no color graduation.
Why “premium” oak alternatives can duplicate the complex flavor and aroma profiles that an actual barrel receives. Oaks contribution in aging.
In order for oak alternatives to achieve the same effect that an actual barrel gives you a multitude of things must happen. The most important is the even color graduation of the toasting process through all the many complex layers of the oak.
Without going into a very lengthy chemistry lesson, there are many chemical compounds and elements in the oak that must to be changed. Most of these changes must happen at different temperature and time parameters within the oak’s complex interior to achieve the broad spectrum of the oaks potential. Unlike thin chips, the actual size of premium oak alternative products is designed to be thick enough to allow the same toasting and aging effect that an actual barrel will impart. This is where you not only receive your creamy and subtle toasty aroma but the complexity behind the aroma to duplicate the "Magic" behind actual barrel aging.
Premium companies put their premium French and American oak products through a slow open flame-toasting process. Some utilize digital microprocessors to control the heat penetration and exact database record every one of our toasting profiles. This process helps the cooper control the consistency of the oak extraction so that they can reproduce it exactly, time after time. The even graduation of the toasting color allows them to create a premium oak barrel alternative at a fraction of the cost of a barrel, while still not sacrificing any of the quality or flavor that an actual barrel contributes.
Oak alternatives actually help in the aging process by allowing the alcohol to penetrate slowly into the complex interior of our oak.
A better understanding of oaks chemical and compound changes during toasting and examples of Toasting Profiles.
The main chemical changes that give you your aromas during the toasting process and a better understanding of how it works.
As the oak heats up during the toasting process, oak hemi cellulose (Oaks Sugars) begins breaking down and caramelizing. At this point, initial oaky aromas start changing into sweet aromas. Next, lignin (Vanillin) decomposes creating a creamy vanilla aroma. Followed by toasty aromas, suggesting a breakdown of both vanillin and hemi cellulose. From then on the formation of almond and smoke are most apparent. The art to this is to integrate all of these properties in to the many complex layers of the oak in different depths and times to draw out the oaks complexity and not leave it with a simple monochromatic flavor profile.
Oaks growth rates, Seasoning and Drying Techniques and their effect on extraction levels along with flavor and aroma profiles.
Normal oak tree growth rated Vs. Slow grown trees.
As both French and American oak trees grow, they create growth rings within the wood’s inner structure. The faster a tree is allowed to grow the further apart the growth rings are from one another. Exactly the opposite is true for trees that are forced to be grown slower. The slow grown trees that have tighter grains are proven to have higher extractions levels, while also increasing the length of time it takes wine to extract all of it’s compounds once toasted. The tighter grained oak will also allow for the introduction of larger amounts of complexity because of the extended extraction period.
Naturally seasoned oak Vs. Kiln dried oak.
After manufacturing, the oak used to make premium oak alternatives is allowed to season naturally in the open air, exposed to nature’s elements for 30+ months and will benefit far greater than the past process known as kiln drying or oak seasoned naturally for only 1 to 2 years. The seasoning process helps to slowly remove harsh compounds and unwanted flavors from the oak. Seasoning in the open air and not in kilns also develops and releases micro flora bacteria’s that help extract higher levels of sweet and spice flavors during the toasting process. This extended seasoning also softens and refines the oaks tannins, eliminates astringency and increases the oaks overall complexity. Just as a good whiskey develops into a great whiskey after aging, giving the oak time to season naturally and not forcing the drying time in a kiln, the oak will develop into a product with greater benefits for the alcohol it’s being integrated into.
American oak Logs
American oak is typically sourced from the slow-growth forests in the Ozark region of the central United States. This regions soil composition mixed with it's thick brush and undergrowth, produce the perfect growing condition for tight, straight-grained oak. Premium oak alternative companies american oak products typically have 2 to 3 more growth rings per inch than many other suppliers.
French Oak Logs
French oak is typicially sourced from the premier forest regions of Vosges and Central France, this region is known for straight and fine-grain oak. The French governments help in forest management ensures the trees will be grown taller, straighter, and older.
barrelcreator
Rumrunner
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Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:56 am
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"O să intru în păcat,/Sfinte Doamne, ţine-mă!
Pentru vin nu am ficat,/Pentru apă... inimă! "PĂSTOREL
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iunicu
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La tincturile de plante in alcool se obtin cele mai bune rezultate cand macerarea se produce la o alcoolemie de 70*. Presupun ca si la maturare, alcoolemia bauturii influenteaza cumva felul in care raspunde lemnul.
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